February 2, 2015 at 2:05 pm #17279
Today I have been following up banks/financial institutions who have sold my debt for final account statements. I have had 2 banks refuse to provide this information, saying that the debt is still showing as “outstansing” in their system until the debt has been paid to the DCA, and then the DCA call them and the file is updated once the outstanding amount is paid to the DCA.
The bank staff are very well trained and very evasive when asked what the debt owed to them is, and what the outstanding balance due and payable to them is. Perhaps they are onto the protocol described in the guide ? They will not even send a letter confirming that what the oustanding balance is.
Under the NCCC, aren’t they legally bound to provide this ? According to the bank, they are more than happy to provide all information up to when the debt was sold… which obviously doesnt include the transaction showing the payment by the DCA to the bank for the debt.
Is this a big impediement in the process ? How can we get around this ?February 2, 2015 at 2:44 pm #17280
2 issues here to deal with. I will presume that you have received a Notice of Assignment from the bank stating that they have assigned all beneficial rights and interest in your account to a debt collection agency. This as you know, means that the bank has no interest in your account anymore.
Firstly, we have never had anybody say that the bank wont give them a final closing statement… ever. The only thing you are asking the bank should be this, “I used to have this account with you, please can i have a copy of the closing statement for that account, would there be any charge for that?“. There is no requirement to mention anything about a debt being owed to them or a debt collector or anybody. You’re not asking the bank for a statement of debt or anything like that. Keep it simple and ask for what you want… an account closing statement. If you have a Notice of Assignment from this bank then you owe them nothing and they cannot claim you still owe them anything.
Secondly, you are not interested in the bank showing you that they sold the debt or for how much they did. You will never in a million years get this from them. You are not asking the bank for this information.
Give it a day or so and call the banks again and just say this:
“I used to have an account with you #1234567, can you please send me a copy of the closing statement?”
No mentioning of NCCC, a sale of debt, the closing balance, the amount it was sold for or anything even close.
Now, if the banks still claim there is an amount payable to them, then you need to ask what does this mean in their Notice of Assignment “assigned all beneficial rights and interest in your account?” “Who does the bank claim this debt is owed to?” “Do i still have an account with you?” “if you the bank can’t tell me how much is owed to you the bank, then how can you expect me to pay anything and how would i know what that amount would be?” “if this debt is owed to you the bank, then who is dodgy debt co and why are they saying i owe them not you?”
You can bet your boots that the banks know our material… but as you say, they are under obligation to provide what you have asked for. I don’t full understand why you’ve had two banks refuse a closing statement so it’s hard to give a real answer to if this is an impediment or not. From the few questions above you can see that the bank is just digging a much deeper hole for themselves, so it can’t be viewed as a major set-back at all.
If they’re happy to provide all information up to when the debt was sold then ask them to send you that. Get back to us after you have asked them again for the closing statement.February 2, 2015 at 3:23 pm #17281
There are a few things I don’t like here.
If the banks have sold the alleged debts, then they have no rights at all anymore to claim what is or isn’t owed to anybody. If you have the notice of assignments from these banks then you can insist that the DCA provide ALL statements for that/those accounts, not just some or most but ALL. You can even be specific and request that you want the closing statements for those accounts.
“You are required to provide via strict performance within 21 days, the FINAL CLOSING STATEMENT for the alleged account with ScumBank #1234567″.
With respect, I think you may have asked for more than you need from these banks. As in admins reply, keep it simple.February 2, 2015 at 3:24 pm #17282
Thank you for the fast response guys. I have followed up 4 institutions today.
I have visited the branches of 3 banks today, 1 gave me a statement no questions asked, the other 2 referred me to their collections departments and I had to phone in. The other was a financial credit company, I had to phone in that as well.
The 3 I have had to phone, all I asked for when I phoned was exactly what you have said above – An account closing statement. When they asked what it was for, I simply said I was going through a refinance application and that I need to confirm all of my debts. When they mentioned account sold to DCA, I said I did not recieve the notice of assignment.
All 3 refused, saying that the debt is now handled by the DCA, and all enquiries must be referred to them as they have the account now. I spent almost an hour on the phone to EACH provider.. I pressed them very hard, asking outright how much money I owe them, is the account open or closed, who do i owe the money to, could I get a letter stating my account had been closed… All met with staunch refusal. They just kept repeating the same line – speak to the DCA, Take that up with the DCA, it isnt our account anymore you will have to call the DCA.
They might not of been refusing before, but I can give you the tip that they are most certainly refusing now.
No amount of twisting and turning the conversation, saying that the account was between me and them and I would like my statement would change the rather VERY well trained responses.
The best I can get out of them are my statements up to when the account was “sold” (All 3 admitted the account was sold) but when I asked for a letter from them stating that the account was sold, they said, surprise surprise, speak to the DCA and they will give you a copy of the notice of assignment. When I asked for notice of assignment on THEIR letterhead, they refused to provide that, said they would never provide that, and said..speak to the DCA.
I had one bank employee get so frustrated that I kept asking pressing questions, she hung up on me !
The rat stench just got a lot stronger.
I have obtained the mailing address for the 3 institutions and will request in writing. Should I use one of the templates, giving formal notice for them to provide the statements ? What do you suggest the next step is ?
Phoning back in will be a waste of time, trust me. The brick wall is well and truly up on the banks side.February 2, 2015 at 7:04 pm #17283
All’s good then.
For the accounts that the banks refuse to provide documents for you have two options.
1. Go direct to the DCA and hit them with a Notice of Demand for Particulars (use template 0.1 from the Bank notices). You are going to make it VERY clear you want ALL statements. “Failure to provide ALL statements pertaining to the alleged account will, with immediate and irrevocable effect, see all claims Settled and Closed with full Legal Accord and Satisfaction“. Obviously you will need to make some major changes to the template but the flavour of it is there.
2. Ask the banks again nicely for the accounts up to when it was sold. Just get from them whatever they are willing to send you. You could be pleasantly surprised.
The banks have confirmed that they don’t have the accounts anymore and this is good for you… they just said you don’t owe them anything.
All that’s lost is the possible $0 owed statement from the bank, but the DCA must provide this statement anyway (option 1). Consider this also, if the banks are refusing to give you information then it is 100% up to the DCA to provide this information. The DCA has this obligation as part of their assignment by law.
Never forget: You don’t owe a debt unless they prove you do… and the Credit Ombudsman has ruled that a Notice of Assignment is not proof of debt.
So far, the bank has said you don’t owe them anything so that only leaves the DCA to prove you owe them something and they have a lot to prove. You’re not in a bad position friend.. not at all.
Let us know how it goes the 3rd time around.February 2, 2015 at 9:10 pm #17284
Thanks Thomas, I will request this from the DCA’s. Will keep you updated.
The banks are super defensive now. It is like talking with a dodgy polictican.. their statements are very carefully worded.. absolutely no commitment, smoke and mirrors.
The battle continues…February 2, 2015 at 10:45 pm #17285
Thought these would help clarify a few things.
The 2 attached documents show why it is such a great help if you do get the closing statement.
In this scanned real example, you can see that in September the bank confirmed that $0 was owed, yet in October the DCA claims there was a debt owed.
Notice how it says “your final payment has been made and your account is now closed”. If the account is closed then the contract is terminated.February 3, 2015 at 12:08 pm #17306
Can you post a link or a quotation of the Credit Ombudsman’s ruling you refer to above ? Think this would be very handy. I did a quick google search but was unable to locate it.
I have had replies from one DCA today following my request for info, and all they sent me was the notice of assignment and the statement with them (not the bank)
DWFebruary 3, 2015 at 9:46 pm #17310
We can’t post that document as it was marked “private and confidential”. However, should you get to the point in the future where this document may help you, we will be able to provide a case number. We’ll not be posting the case number online.
Regarding the assignment. well the problem there (for the DCA) is that you only have their word that the bank assigned them some alleged debt… therefor you will need to see their Deed of Assignment to verify what they claim. So the Notice of Qualified Acceptance would cover this.
Where are you in the notice process, as a Notice of Determination of Rights may be in order too?February 4, 2015 at 5:21 pm #17334
There is no other word for it!March 10, 2015 at 11:10 am #17756
Please send me the case number re the Credit Ombudsman’s ruling you refer to above,
Many thanks.March 10, 2015 at 10:11 pm #17759
Sorry Python, this case is not for public distribution. Should you ever need to have the case number we will gladly provide it but you must be at the very end of the entire notice/cosl/affidavit process for it to have any effect.
We wouldn’t publish this case on the site for any reason.March 11, 2015 at 8:45 am #17760
OK thanks.January 24, 2017 at 12:35 pm #78126
I currently have a CIO complaint in as have been summons to court. I really need this CIO case number referred to above also. Also ANZ has sent me a final statement that shows a closing balance which isn’t zero and the closing statement date is AFTER the alleged date of assignment (by several weeks). It’s the full amount that was alleged assigned. I have asked twice for the closing statement and this is what they have sent (the first time it was a year’s old statement (not the last closing statement) — feels like they are stalling, and being obstructionist for sure. I really need this for my defense. I did wonder if having a balance after the supposed date of assignment could maybe help my case though also? How can the Notice of Assignment even be correct if it’s dated before the end date of the last statement I have which has the full balance owing still? Any help much appreciated… time is running out and I am starting to freak out a bit… I have emailed the admin box for this site but not heard back. Not sure if went to junk folder or something. Please help. cheersJanuary 25, 2017 at 3:58 am #78128
I did wonder if having a balance after the supposed date of assignment could maybe help my case though also? How can the Notice of Assignment even be correct if it’s dated before the end date of the last statement I have which has the full balance owing still?
Remember, it is an obligation at law, of the bank, to provide accurate details of your account including any outstanding balance etc. If these statements contradict the NOA then you have every right to demand that the DCA provide evidence to support their claim. The statement you refer to is great for you. Here now, you have documented evidence that as of whatever date the ANZ claim that you owe them $X yet this same claim is being made by the DCA on whatever date for $x. “How did this liability to the DCA accrue as owed to them on whatever date?”.
Will email the case number today.January 25, 2017 at 5:07 am #78129
thanks so much Matt. I did think it would strengthen my case. I will ring the CIO today and see what’s happening and of course record the call. Maybe this is enough for them to back away. cheersJanuary 25, 2017 at 5:15 am #78130
It’s good to record the call but better to do it in writing.January 31, 2017 at 1:33 am #78131
thanks Matt. I have rung CIO and CCorp hasn’t responded as yet. And yes I will get in writing any conversations with case manager.May 24, 2017 at 10:06 am #78225
How did you go with this? Did you end up in court? I am at a similar stage with CC and would love to hear from someone who has already gone this far as I’m quite anxious about trying to defend this on my own. Thanks.October 4, 2017 at 8:06 am #78274
I have now received an application form which has none of my handwriting on it, seems like some sort of computer generated printout, of course not signed. Of course still no Deed of Assignment. CIO says they emailed me in August and Sept, and because I didn’t respond they have closed case. I didn’t receive these emails and had asked that they write to me via post each of their letters to ensure deliverability from the start, which they ignored. I only by chance saw their email today when I did look in junk folder for something else I was expecting. I don’t even have their emails in my junk folder from August or September. I can’t understand why important letters they don’t mail to me as requested. I have today requested a week’s extension to respond to issues raised so hopefully that is granted as I have to formulate a formal response as they have basically done nothing and just asked for copies of default notices and application form from CCorp. ANZ files notes do indicate that the account was written off some 6 months before it was sold to Credit Corp. The file notes use term “written off”. I believe this is also in my favor if it ends up in court. CCorp have just said they are willing to do payment plan or a lump sum offer. that’s it. CIO really seems like a toothless tiger. cheers
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